Helpful Supplements while using LOD

Supplements that may help a person following a low oxalate diet:

o Arginine
Important for replenishing nitrous oxide that helps to reduce oxidative damage from oxalates. It also reduces the risk of stone formation, by curtailing free radicals and is good for pain management. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods.  Keep separate from Lysine.

o Taurine
Important for making bile acid taurocholate which limits absorption of oxalate. Take if stool turns yellow. Also aids in fatty acid absorption. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods.

o Vitamin A
Important for helping to close the leaky gut and important as antioxidant. May reduce crystallization of oxalates in the urine. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, Klaire Labs, Douglas Laboratories, and New Beginnings Nutritionals.  If fat malabsorption is an issue, take between meals and away from calcium used to bind oxalate at meals.

o Vitamin E
Important as an antioxidant and reduces calcium oxalate crystal formation. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, Klaire Labs, Douglas Laboratories, and New Beginnings Nutritionals. If fat malabsorption is an issue, take between meals and away from calcium used to bind oxalate at meals.

o Lipoic Acid (ALA)
Works for some, not for others; important antioxidant and can prevent some endogenous production of oxalate. Use with caution. ALA also chelates heavy metals such as mercury and arsenic. Do not use if you have amalgam fillings. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations and Kirkman Labs.  Keep separate from Biotin and B5.

o NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine)
Important for restoring glutathione that gets depleted by oxalate. Sometimes there are negative reactions. Use with caution. 

o Lipoceutical Glutathione
Helps restore glutathione. It helps reduce metabolism of glycolate to oxalate. It helps behavior on diet (meltdowns) for some children. This is available at Wellness Pharmacy.

o Lemon Juice
Helps with digestion when given before eating and may help balance pH issues when acidity is a problem.

o Antihistamine
Oxalate may cause histamine release so this counters that. Do not use an antihistamine formula that includes a decongestant.

o Thiamine (Vitamin B1) and Magnesium
Important for keeping meat from being metabolized towards oxalate; helps in mitochondrial function. Deficiency of thiamine has been shown to produce hyperoxaluria and renal stone formation in man and experimental animals. May also help with constipation. Good brands are New Beginnings Nutritionals for thiamine, Complimentary Prescriptions, Advanced Orthomolecular Research, and Doctor's Best for Benfotiamine, and Ecological Formulas for Allithiamine.

o Pantothenic acid or CoEnzyme A (Vitamin B5)
Important to keep from making oxalate by glycolate cycle in microbes and us. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods. Take separate from Biotin and Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA).

o Biotin
Biotin-dependent enzymes can be disabled by high levels of oxalate, even when biotin is not deficient, because oxalate tangles with the movement of biotin within the enzyme structure. Good brands are NOW Foods and Vitamin Shoppe (5 Mg or less). Brands with larger doses (8-10 mg) include Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, Vitamin Research Products and Freeda Vitamins. Take separate from B5 and Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA).  Requires Magnesium.

o Vitamin B6
Important for preventing metabolism of food to oxalate. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods (B6 and P5P).  Requires Magnesium.

o Citrate (Calcium or Magnesium)
May prevent crystallization of oxalate and may help break down crystals already formed. Important to take before meals to bind to oxalate and prevent its absorption. Timing is critical to this effect! Good brands are New Beginnings Nutritionals, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods.  Do not take with Vit D, since Vit D promotes calcium absorption.

o Calcium with D and K for absorption
Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods.

o Magnesium
Can be depleted by oxalate, may help with constipation and binds oxalate. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods. Works with B6 and Biotin.

o Lipase or Ox Bile
May help if steatorrhea is leading to excess absorption of oxalate. Good brands are Nutricology for Ox Bile and Integrative Therapeutics for Lipase.

o Epsom Salts Baths
Can be calming. Occasionally may cause rashes but this may not be a bad thing, as it may be helping get rid of oxalate in the skin.

o Bicarbonate
Sodium bicarbonate or Alka Seltzer Gold can help with behaviors.

o Zinc
May be depleted by oxalate. The response and need for zinc seems to change rapidly on diet: alter dose appropriately. Good brands are Pure Encapsulations, Thorne Research, and NOW Foods.  Keep separate from Copper.

LO Chicken Fajitas - to try

3 lbs chicken breast, cut in thin strips (trace)

3 cups red peppers, sliced (6.6)

2 cups onion, sliced (13.2)

1 tbsp LO Fajita seasoning (11.4)

4 chopped garlic cloves (1.2)

1/2 cup lemon juice (.8)

4 tbsp cooking fat (trace)

12 Butter lettuce leaves (1.2)

 

 

Combine the chicken, bell peppers, onions, spices, garlic and lemon juice in a bowl and mix well. If preparing ahead of time, let marinate in the refrigerator for about 4 hours.

 

When ready to cook, heat a large skillet over a medium heat and cook the whole preparation with the cooking fat until the chicken is cooked through and the onion and bell peppers are soft. Place the hot chicken preparation in a large bowl and prepare fajitas on top of lettuce leaves with your favorite toppings. 

 

Serves 6.

 

 

34.4 mg total oxalate, 5.7 mg per serving

Coconut Flour Pancakes - to try

3 pastured or Omega-3 eggs
1 tsp pure vanilla extract
2 Tbsp olive oil or coconut oil
1/2 tsp cream of tartar
1/2 tsp baking soda
1/4 cup coconut flour
Organic Blueberries 

Whisk eggs in a bowl until light and fluffy then mix in other ingredients, except fruit, until batter is smooth. 
 
Put spoonful on skillet and then place berries on top. Cook for few mins on medium heat then flip over and cook the other side. 
 

Yes and No Lists - Low-Oxalate

FRUIT

YES

Blueberries

Lemons

Limes

NO

Grapefruit

Kiwi

Oranges

Raspberries

LEGUMES

NO

Black Beans

Refried Beans

Soy

NUTS & SEEDS

NO

Almonds

Hemp Seeds

Peanuts

Pecans

Pistachios

Sesame Seeds

Sunflower Seeds

Tahini

SPICES

YES

Almond Extract

Cardamom

Cayenne

Chili Powder

Garlic Powder

Ginger, fresh

Mustard Powder

Paprika

Thyme

Vanilla Extract

NO

Allspice

Celery Seed

Cinnamon

Cloves

Coriander

Cumin

Curry Powder

Fennel Seed

Ginger, dried

Lemon Peel, dried

Onion Powder

Turmeric

VEGETABLES

YES

Bok Choy

Broccoli

Butter Lettuce

Cabbage

Cauliflower

Mushrooms

Onions

Romaine

Sauerkraut

Scallions

NO

Carrots

Celery

Hearts of Palm

Leeks

Potatoes

Spinach

Sweet Potatoes

Swiss Chard

Tomato Sauce

Chinese Broccoli & Jackfruit Stir-Fry ****

Broccolini & Jackfruit Stir-Fry

 

Marinade:

2 Tbsp Sesame Oil

2 Tbsp Coconut Aminos

1/2 Tbsp Rice Wine Vinegar

1 Tbsp Fresh Ginger, grated

4 Cloves Garlic, minced or pressed

Smoked salt to taste


Stir-Fry: 

10 oz Young Jackfruit 

1 Sweet Onion, sliced 

2 Cloves Garlic, minced or pressed 

1 Head Broccolini, chopped

½ bunch Skinny Asparagus, sliced on the diagonal in 1” pieces

10-12 Baby Bells Mushrooms, sliced

Avocado Oil 

Sesame Seeds

In a small bowl, whisk together all marinade ingredients. 

Drain and rinse jackfruit, pat dry, then pull apart into thin strands, 

discarding seed pods, and add to the marinade, mixing well. Let 

stand for 30 minutes or marinate overnight in the fridge.




Heat a large pan or wok on medium heat, then spray with avocado 

oil. Add onion and sauté until translucent.  Add garlic.  Add 

broccolini, asparagus, and mushrooms; sauté, stirring occasionally 

for 3-4 minutes. Add about a tablespoon of water, cover the pan 

with a lid immediately, and steam for 1-2 minutes, until just tender.

Transfer the vegetable mixture into a separate bowl.

Add a bit more avocado oil to the same pan, then add jackfruit. 

Stir-fry jackfruit for a few minutes, stirring occasionally, until it 

begins to crisp.

Add back the vegetable mixture to the pan and mix.  Sprinkle with 

sesame seeds.

https://www.siabrainhealth.com/post/chinese-broccoli-jackfruit-stir-fry
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Cooking Vegetables

I have always boiled my broccoli, and have a few tricks that make it taste better. First make sure the water is at a rolling boil before you drop the vegetables in. Turn down the heat slightly, but so it still lightly boils with the lid off. test with a fork, when it can pierce the vegetable easily it is done. This keeps the broccoli a deep green color and the flavor is great. I indulge with butter and sea salt. I find that if you add the vegetables before the water boils the color comes out along with the flavor.

All cooking methods are fine. (I know lots of people follow many different dietary practices, so individuals may disagree, but from this plan's perspective, we embrace all cooking methods.) On the oxalate front, boiling can reduce oxalate (varies a lot by food, best to check the spreadsheet), but roasting, grilling, sautéing, steaming don't reduce oxalate. But they are still good methods of cooking - you just need to measure your oxalate accordingly! To measure the oxalate in those foods, just measure while raw, and look at the portion sizes and oxalate levels for raw. On your carrot question, if you cook the carrots IN the soup, you will still get the oxalate. If you cook them separately in boiling water (and discard that water), then add them to the soup, then that will reduce the oxalate.

Low Oxalate Food Lists

http://www.lowoxalate.info/recipes.html

Supplements to avoid or reduce while following a low oxalate diet

• Vitamin C
  It can be metabolized to oxalate. The effect may be delayed by as much as two weeks.
  

• Fish Oils
  If there is poor fat digestion, this may cause more absorption of oxalate. Try it with and without to see which is better. The vitamin D in some fish oils may be a problem for some people.
  

• Vitamin D
  Vitamin D may cause enhanced absorption of unbound calcium in the gut, and this can lead to more free oxalate being absorbed from food. For this reason, calcium taken at the beginning of meals for the purpose of binding oxalate should not include added vitamin D. Calcium taken away from meals may contain Vitamin D.
  

• Iron Some have seen improvements in iron status on diet. It may be needed at the beginning.
  

• Nystatin
  This may possibly keep the gut leaky through effects on the membrane that lies at the at the tight junction. Try eliminating it and see if that works better.
  

• PEG Compounds (like Glycolax or Miralax)
  These may be converted with the help of microbes into oxalate. Especially discontinue if you see symptoms.
  

• Other Supplements or Medicines
  Needs for supplements tend to change on this diet. Many find that they are able to eliminate parts of their supplement program gradually, including anti-yeast strategies. Others find their gut heals so well that they do not any longer require gastrointestinal medications. Work this out with the help of your child's doctor.

• This site is for informational purposes only. Please consult with a qualified medical professional before making any dietary changes.

What is Oxalate?

Oxalate is a very simple sort of molecule. It links up with calcium and crystallizes under some conditions, including when it encounters damaged tissues. The crystals formed this way can be quite irritating and painful to tissues where they cause or increase inflammation. These crystals can be especially painful if they lodge themselves in places where they get in the way of the movement of other things through tight places. 

These physical issues are easy to understand, but there are still many secrets being discovered about how oxalate interacts with our metabolism. Research shows that it tangles with cellular issues like altering the cell membrane by lipid peroxidation and oxidizing and interfering with the trafficking of glutathione. In the mitochondrion it impairs many enzymes that furnish the energy for cell life. Oxalate changes what happens in the cytosol, the fluid interior of cells where calcium waves regulate complex chemistry, and where it can also alter the function of ion channels. Oxalate changes calcium storage in the endoplasmic reticulum where calcium is kept available for cell signaling and cell death programs. Oxalate enters the nucleus of cells, where DNA gives the recipe for making proteins, but there oxalate modifies transcription in unknown ways that are only now being studied.

Because it is so reactive, oxalate also interferes with the duties of many other positively charged ions like magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, manganese, and more. This may alter the role of these ions in enzymes and in other complex molecules. Oxalate specifically impairs iron's intracellular release, and interferes with the whole class of biotin-dependent enzymes called carboxylases. These disruptions of cell chemistry are not what happens when oxalate is bound to calcium, but are what happens when it ISN'T bound to calcium. Its free state allows it to cross into the cell as an ion on transporters generally designed to move sulfate into cells. When someone is low in sulfate, this may change where oxalate is taken.

Where does oxalate come from?

Oxalate is present in a lot of plants and fruit that we eat. It is especially high in almost all seeds and nuts, but in some more than others. Ordinarily, the gut won't absorb much of the oxalate from the diet because most of the oxalate will be metabolized by the flora or just leave the body with the stool. Under other conditions, such as when there is gut inflammation, a lot of dietary oxalate is absorbed. The difference can be as great as going from 1-2% of the dietary oxalate absorbed to as high as 50%.
Over absorption of oxalate will also occur when the tight junctions between intestinal cells open up and let molecules pass to the other side going between the cells. This condition, called the "leaky gut", may happen during illness, or when cells in the gut die, leaving gaps, and may bring with it allergies to foods. This condition is similar to when the bladder has open junctions called the "leaky bladder", or when the blood brain barrier is compromised. The colon may also absorb too much oxalate when small bowel function is compromised by surgery, by poor pancreatic function, and/or by fat maldigestion.

How does this happen and why is it a problem?

When substances move to the blood from the gut by slipping around intestinal cells, they bypass the regulation that is present when these same substances move across through the inside of these cells. Intestinal cells can control the quantity that crosses. They do this by regulating the number of transporters or carriers that span the cell membrane and allow that particular substance into the cell. After a substance crosses the cell to the blood side, it can leave the cell to join the blood using a different set of transporters that are on the blood or "exit" side. These transporters are very specific for particular chemicals or nutrients.

Because intestinal cells control admission and exit from both the gut and blood side, that's why the body can send signals to these cells instructing them whether to absorb more or absorb less of a substance from food. So cells can erect barriers, if you will, to prevent too much of a substance to cross, and this regulation can protect us.

Unfortunately, the body loses that regulation when substances are absorbed through the "leaky" junctions BETWEEN cells. Oxalate is just one of the unfortunate substances where unregulated absorption is a problem. At least now we know about oxalate, but other things in food may also be a problem, like gluten, and for some, casein, or allergenic foods.

Whenever more oxalate is absorbed like this, the result is increased levels of oxalate in blood and urine and in tissues. More of it stays in the bone than anywhere, but it also goes into blood vessels, and glands, and secretory organs and even the spleen and heart. It can even get into the brain, most likely the parts of the brain that regulate hormones!

Hyperoxaluria

When scientists or doctors measure oxalate being high in urine, they call this hyperoxaluria. Unfortunately, oxalate may be high in blood or tissues when it isn't high in urine. This is a serious limitation of urine testing, because it doesn't tell us when people may have trouble secreting oxalate to urine. In that case, more oxalate may be retained in the body than the urine test suggests. Our almost exclusive reliance on urine tests is one reason scientists haven't sufficiently studied oxalate-related conditions in the rest of the body when their patients had no obvious kidney disease.

Our bodies can also make oxalate

Eating foods high in oxalate is not the only way for oxalate to get high in cells and blood. Our bodies make oxalate on their own, especially when certain enzymes aren't balanced in their activity because of genetic differences or because someone has deficiencies in enzyme cofactors like vitamin B6, magnesium or thiamine. Oxalate also can be generated in the body when someone is getting high doses of vitamin C or consuming high levels of fructose.

Protections from oxalate

Normally, when oxalate travels through the gut, it may encounter particular species of bacteria which will digest it and turn it into something else that isn't so irritating and harmful. This system of microbial digestion of oxalate may be why the body seems to purposefully route excess oxalate from the rest of the body to the gut for disposal. Unfortunately, the very microbes we need to do this digesting of oxalate for us are subject to being killed by antibiotics in common use. (see link) Even if there was no exposure to antibiotics, these microbes might not have colonized in very young children. The main oxalate degrading bacteria, oxalobacter formigenes, does not tend to be present in breastmilk, but scientists think it must be picked up gradually from the environment.

Lactobacillus acidophilus deprived of its usual food, may be able to “eat” oxalate, but too much oxalate in its diet may kill it off. This may explain why certain people have great difficulty colonizing lactobacillus acidophilus, despite constant use of probiotics containing it.
 
Fortunately, a probiotic formulation of a bacteria called oxalobacter formigenes is under development as a drug for patients with hyperoxaluria and related conditions, and it is currently in clinical trials, but may not be available until 2012 or 2013.

How do oxalates function in the body?

Scientists had wondered if oxalate might help to manage calcium in the endoplasmic reticulum, but more recent studies see its role there as more of a disruption. We just cannot find evidence that oxalate has a beneficial reason to be high in humans, or that human metabolism ever increases making oxalate to fulfill some need. Some people have proposed using oxalate (similar to how doctors use poisons in chemotherapy) to treat cancers “naturally”, but they are probably not familiar with how this has already been studied, and oxalate released from a chemotherapy drug called oxaliplatin was found to produce serious neurotoxicity in those patients!

Recent research on the management of oxalate trafficking in the gut and other secretory tissues is suggesting that excess oxalate secretion could end up involving changes in the regulation of fluid, pH, microbial defense, and antioxidant protection. The gut seems to be designed to eliminate excess oxalate, but perhaps when oxalate levels in the blood get much higher than what our bodies expect, then the excess oxalate may disrupt ordinary functions in the gut.

At this point, mainstream oxalate scientists (and they are almost exclusively kidney doctors) are still thinking that the gut's problems are the CAUSE of oxalate absorption resulting in damage to the kidney, but they are not yet willing to consider that the gut itself and its function may also be a victim of the excess oxalate coming from the blood even when the kidneys are not obviously diseased.

Oxalate problems outside the kidneys

Now that we have six years of experience in reducing oxalate in more than 3500 people in the support group associated with this website and in more people indirectly through their physicans, it seems clear that those who have had gut issues and reduce dietary oxalate are often seeing their gut function improve or normalize as they lose other chronic problems.

Many who reduce dietary oxalate, but had NO obvious kidney issues, are seeing major improvements in other chronic conditions. Scientists must start looking with fresh eyes at these other conditions and their potential association to oxalate. So far, our list of conditions that improve includes fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis, vulvodynia, depression, arthritis, and gut problems of all sorts, as wells as autism and many other developmental disorders. Some of these disorders have clear genetic links, but the gene defects may produce “leaky guts”, or oxalate problems all by themselves without the requirement of inflammation.

Scientists know that issues local to the kidneys raise risks for kidney stones. They also found out that urine oxalate levels in those with kidney stones do not tend to be very different from urine oxalate levels in the rest of us. Even so, reducing dietary oxalate can help reduce stones, especially if other treatments did not help.

Kidneys provide only one site of oxalate secretion, but oxalate is also secreted to skin, to saliva, to mucus in the lungs, and to the gut and stool. The relative importance of these other modes of secretion have not been adequately studied. Risk factors relevant to these other systems may account for why some people with oxalate issues do not have kidney stones or other signs of kidney disease, but may have serious effects in other places from an excess body burden of oxalate.
The body has antioxidant and other protections against oxalate which work when the body burden of oxalate is low and the antioxidant resources high. These systems may be overwhelmed by higher levels of oxalate in the body's tissues, or when infection (frequent immunization?) overwhelms the body's antioxidant systems. For this reason, as long as someone continues to consume a high oxalate diet when their gut is “leaky” or when they are sick, then, eventually, in time, the damage may begin to appear as some organs begin to be affected by a buildup of oxalate, or by the disruption of the mineral chemistry that oxalate may inflict.

Why do plants have oxalate?

So why does nature put oxalate in plants that we might eat? Plants use oxalate to protect themselves from infection or from being eaten. Oxalate crystals can tear up the “teeth” of the bugs that eat them, and the bugs will stop and leave the plant alone! That's why oxalate is a good protection for plants that taste good to bugs, but they are a secret surprise for larger creatures who don't detect oxalate when they eat high oxalate foods, and who lack the ability to sense its toxicity and lack the means to protect themselves from oxalate's effects. There is simply too much distance between the time of consumption and the appearance of problems for anyone to have noticed this issue until now when the proper science is beginning to be done.

Fortunately, there are plenty of other plant foods that are equally healthy as plants that are high oxalate. It is hard to learn that plants previously thought to be highly nutritious, like spinach and field greens, are extremely high in oxalate. In fact, spinach and many nuts are also high in the poison, cyanide, and who told us that?!

Now, since more testing has been done, we can enjoy eating the low oxalate plants that have high nutrition without experiencing the subtle, and insidious buildup of oxalate. We can be happy about limiting our exposure to this clear antinutrient, mitochondrial toxin, and disruptor of cell chemistry. Please feel welcome to explore the rest of our site for more information!

http://www.lowoxalate.info/?fbclid=IwAR0ieDr6cZ_Uvgzt8PkN7ug7bIQrKLpwVWPe9ZAY2RvEMnEi2nuzpJ18wZw

This information is protected by copyright laws, but may be used by individuals for their own use. Any publication of these materials outside this site may only be done after expressed permission from the authors. They may be contacted here....
Also, the information on this site must not be construed as medical advice. Any medicines mentioned on the site must be prescribed by a licensed professional. Please consult your own health care professional about how any information on this site could fit into your own or your child's health care regime.

TLO Research Corner: Overlap between oxalate and CIRS

One of our group members recently was asking some questions about the overlap between oxalate issues and a syndrome called CIRS. I found a paper talking about diagnostic procedures and the etiology of this condition which is thought to be created by exposure to toxins or infectious agents.

I know a lot of you have become familiar with my interest in the newly discovered inflammasomes that define how our innate immunity works, and are aware that non-infectious stimuli can trigger the inflammasome just like infectious things can. Oxalate is one of those non-infectious stimuli, but so far, the only work in this area has been conducted relative to the kidney. Inflammasome research is so new, though, that addressing these issues should come soon. Uric acid can do the same and is associated with gout, and we know that occurs far outside the kidney.

At any rate, I would like you group members to look at this diagram, especially if you have no history of exposure to the sorts of infections they talk about here: https://www.survivingmold.com/…/UNDERSTANDING_CIRS_EDITV2A.…, and tell me how many of these or which one of these symptoms you have seen disappear or dissipate with a low oxalate diet. We know some fungus actually makes oxalate, though it doesn't seem candida is one of them.

I would just like your thoughts on this cluster of 13 symptoms. Surely, if someone has all thirteen, they have had some bad luck!

Allithiamine/ TTFD versus Benfotiamine: Benefits to TTFD

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    Paula Hashmall And regular thiamine?

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    Susan OwensAuthor The brain uses thiamine and we cannot make it, so it must get in there. Benfotiamine has been engineered to work a little differently in trafficking (or where it goes).

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  Annie Flanders Julie Naylor
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  Lynn Connery Taube Becker
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  Britney Ware This is great info!
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  Tiffany Olson So should we be taking both benfotiamine and allithiamine or does allithiamine cover our bases?

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  Elizabeth Gould Morse Great question Tiffany, Susan Owens, what do you suggest?
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  Susan OwensAuthor Elizabeth Lynne Gould from Karla’s experience, I think, she saw benefits from benfotiamine that did not happen with allithiamine, so even though allithiamine may act centrally, there still may be some benefits that are unique to benfotiamine, Karla Wiersma, can you clarify?

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  Tiffany Olson Susan Owens So I guess experimentation with each type would be the way to tell what would be best? Would it be safe to take both at the same time?

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  Tiffany Olson Karla Wiersma It doesn't look like Susan's tag of your name worked above....
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  Susan OwensAuthor Thanks, Tiffany, I don't know why it didn't tag her. Thanks to you for succeeding!
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  Karla Wiersma Thanks for the tag Tiffany Olson! Elizabeth, Susan is correct. Ian didn’t have any reaction (good or bad) from allithiamine, but benfotiamine triggered dumping and that seems to be the form he needs, oxalate wise

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  Ranka Radovic i wish i could find more information on thiamin pyrophosphate :( because i am worried that TTPD, being soluble in oil, wouldn't work properly if one has sluggish gallbladder...
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  Jackie Kludt Has anyone else noticed that benfotiamine makes urine smell really, really bad? Does this mean anything? Is it sulfur, or dumping?

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  Susan OwensAuthor The smell is likely the sulfur in thiamin.

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  Terry Phelan Susan Owens So, in plain english please, what does this mean? From what I gather, benfotiamine does not cross the blood brain barrier and does not get into the brain where as allithiamine does. Are there any foods that will do the same as allithiamine and is this what we want to occur?

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  Taube Becker I don’t notice a urine sulfur smell with benfo but I would think allithiamine would. It definitely has a strong smell. I have not taken alli due to the smell

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  Susan OwensAuthor Terry Phelan , the quantities are different. I would suggest going to the usda database and look at the quantity of thiamine in most foods.
  
  We don’t know how much thiamine is typically produced by gut bacteria, but some antibiotics may kill the thiamine producers. We still have in adequate data on how and which antibiotics affect that quantity.
  
  There is a lot we don’t know.

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  Gretchen Axelson Susan Owens
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  Darla Williams Holder F
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  Kate Weaving Damn I’ve just ordered benfotiamine

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  Robyn Brown me too!

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  Yvonne Stiphout Kate Weaving me too

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  Lauren Marie I love benfothianine for my brain 🙂

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  Sheila Kay Lauren Marie They are saying that form doesn't cross the blood brain barrier? Did you mean Allithiamine?
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  David Wood Well if you read the first part of this thread, it seems that both forms might be worth taking.
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  Janet Kirch Lauren Marie I thought Benfothianine does not affect the brain?
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  Josephina Allison Jones Kate Weaving. how is the benfotiamine working?
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  Gretchen Axelson Wow, this is a big deal. Thanks for sharing.
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  Emilie Gustavsen I’ve been taking benfothiamine. I tried taking allithiamine and I swear it was making me almost narcoleptic so I switched back to the benfo. 🤔

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  Daniel Beck Emilie Gustavsen same thing for me it completely knocks me out within a few hours of taking it. What other options are there if this is the case and we need to cross the BBB?

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  Emilie Gustavsen Daniel Beck I’ve actually started taking it again and it no longer has the same effect. Not sure how or why?

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  Daniel Beck Emilie Gustavsen do you notice a difference with it?

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  Emilie Gustavsen Daniel Beck now I think it’s helping with energy.

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  Marissa Burghdorf Emilie Gustavsen could it be you are having a different reaction because of the LOD now? So interesting.

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  Emilie Gustavsen Marissa Burghdorf I think it’s likely that I was more depleted in thiamine then, so my system was a little shocked by the sudden introduction. Maybe since allithiamine is sulfur based it was too much of a double whammy? That seems to line up with what I’ve learned at least.

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen I’m trying to find a good brand of allithiamine for my daughter Online and can’t seem to find a reputable brand. All I’m finding is benfothiamine.

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  Emilie Gustavsen Jesi Celeita this is the one we’ve used -
  
  Ecological Formulas Allithiamine Vitamin B1 50 Mg, White, 60 Count https://www.amazon.com/.../ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i...
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  amazon.com

  Ecological Formulas Allithiamine Vitamin B1 50 Mg, White, 60 Count

  Ecological Formulas Allithiamine Vitamin B1 50 Mg, White, 60 Count

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  Jesi Cels The only one I’m finding has phosphorus and calcium in it but my daughter tested very high in phosphorus in her Oats so I’m not sure if she should take that?

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen oh yeah that’s the one! I’m desperately trying to order it before anything happens to shipments or the internet or who knows 🙈 I think her phosphorus was high because she was calcium deficient, but this was back in May and she’s been drinking milk like crazy since then so I’m not sure what to do.

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  Emilie Gustavsen Jesi Celeita I’m not sure, it seems like a small amount of phosphorous, maybe not enough to worry about? I don’t know if anyone else makes it. I’m worried amazon is going to restrict shipping soon too. 😬

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen ok I’ll order it now! Thanks sooooo much for replying so quick!! ❤️

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen got two bottles of the 250 count just in case so hopefully she does well on it 😂😂😂

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  Emilie Gustavsen Jesi Celeita you’ll have a lifetime supply! 😂

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen just a little worried about shipments being disrupted or something like that (every day is a new reality it seems lol).

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen we did a consult w Elliot and he believes she basically has beri beri. She has SO many symptoms. So hopefully this is the answer we needed to finish her puzzle 🙏🏻 that’s why I’m scared of her trying it and starting to do great and then no more shipments or no more vitamins or anything crazy like that lol. I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best 🤣

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  Emilie Gustavsen Jesi Celeita I’m a planner too, I get it! Wow, I hope Elliot is right and it’s helpful for her! Scary stuff. ♥️

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen yes we’re so excited to try this approach! She used albuterol a lot last year and apparently it depletes Thiamin. That’s when she started with spontaneous vomiting, tics, and so many other issues. And she used it a lot when she was little so potentially she’s been very deficient since then. When she was little sometimes they’d give her four Albuterol breathing treatments back to back 🙈

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  Emilie Gustavsen Jesi Celeita oh wow! I had no idea about albuterol. Makes sense for me and my daughter, who I’ve been giving thiamine to. Hopefully LOD will also help her lungs too, it helped mine clear up. Please keep us posted on her progress. ♥️

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  Jesi Cels Emilie Gustavsen wow that’s awesome to hear! Yes shortness of breath and chest tightness is another of her symptoms...yet her oxygen levels are perfect!

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  Jesi Cels Will keep you all posted for sure!

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  Rene Escobedo Jesi Celeita any update ?
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  Jesi Cels Rene Escobedo yes! She has not thrown up at all since starting it. She threw up once after eating a ton of food but not like before where she couldn’t even hold down a snack. It’s been 5 weeks now. She has headaches and a bit of dizziness from the all…See More

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  Tanith Hammond Interesting, thank you!
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  Bonnie Parker what 's about lipothiamine ?

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  Ranka Radovic same as alli, just has some ALA added, and is a tablet, not a gelatine capsule.
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  Margaret Parker Dollas My son with MS is taking lipothiamine. Is that the same as the allithiamine? I notice customer rating is better for the allithiamine than the lipothiamine. Can u talk about the difference?

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  Ranka Radovic it has a small amount of ala added, and is enteric coated. dr. Lonsdale said the other day on another group that he prefers lipo to alli for those reasons.

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  Margaret Parker Dollas Interesting. I wonder what the ALA offers along with the thiamine.
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  Tracy Raddigan I have Source Naturals B1, it simply says Thiamine. How does that relate to what you have written above?

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  Michelle Raighn-Hall Thiamin mononitrate....which one is that? Need thiamin for ms
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  Susan OwensAuthor Michelle, please read this study.
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  Susan OwensAuthor
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  Charleah Day What if you are silver intolerant?
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  Michele Gray Thank you!
  
  If it says from Thiamin HCI is that an ok form?
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  Susan OwensAuthor HCl is the most commonly used form of thiamine.

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  Michele Gray Susan Owens Thanks so much, Susan

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  Bee Stoo Fantastic information! Thanks Susan Owens!
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  Deborah Lawrence F
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  Bonnie Parker Does nobody know about lipothiamine ?

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  Jane Elizabeth Bonnie Parker which one is that? Can you post a product?
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  Gianluca Nesi Crema authia It's good?
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  Tracy Smith What is that?
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  Gianluca Nesi Ttdf and b12 ... is a chelator too Tracy Smith
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  Susan OwensAuthor Yes authia is good.

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  Kathy Bergman Thank you, Susan Owens!
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  Lauren Marie This is weird I’ve only used benforhiamine but it helps my brain..like nothing else will.

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  Amy Kimberling Natzke Yes, Benfotiamine is great for my brain, too. There is plenty online to support that., I have found.

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  Lauren Marie I haven’t seen much for allithiamine though, it seems to be hit or miss for people.
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  Susan OwensAuthor Maybe indirectly?

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  Lauren Marie what do you mean indirectly Susan Owens?
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  Eliona Baci Susan Owens if we have mercury toxicity it's better to use bentofamine then allthiamine? I switched to bentofamine I do better, then the allthiamine you suggested to me.
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  Elaine Sullivan Susan Owens, I want to report my experience with your advice to separate B1 from B6. I did it first about a year ago and then gradually I decided that was inconvenient and stopped. Then I tried it again yesterday and it reminded me of why I was enthusi…See More

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  Marissa Burghdorf Elaine Sullivan hello where did you get your products from? 

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  Elaine Sullivan Marissa Burghdorf feel free to send me a pm. 🙂
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  Barbara Myers Susan Owens are you familiar with the discontinued TPP lozenge from Seeking Health? I never understood which B1 it was except I know it wasn't thiamine or benfotiamine. Does that leave only TTFD/allithiamine? I really liked it when I took it and I w…See More

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  Taube Becker Metabolic brand in the UK carries TPP. It used to be a liquid. Drops. Very convenient

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  Taube Becker http://www.metabolics.com/vitamin-b1-thiamine...
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    metabolics.com

    Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Pyrophosphate) 100ml

    Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Pyrophosphate) 100ml

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  Susan OwensAuthor I am busy this morning but let’s start a new thread on this maybe this evening.

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  Barbara Myers Sure, thanks Susan. Do you want me to make a new post this evening or just watch for you to post?
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  Susan OwensAuthor Let's maybe watch for me to post. I have a lot of new things about thiamine brewing.

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  Jane Elizabeth Interesting
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  Jane Elizabeth I just ordered the benfothianine too
  
  But this one- Would be better than?…See More
pureformulas.com
Allithiamine Vitamin B1 50 mg - 60 Capsules
Allithiamine Vitamin B1 50 mg - 60 Capsules
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  Ellie Pope I was on Benfo until this post came out, then tried the supplement you're suggesting Jane Elizabeth. Gotta say - I immediately felt AMAZING! (Never noticed much difference with the Benfo , and had worked my way up to 600 mg). If you search, there is a post from Susan about a dump she thinks was induced by allithiamine. My takeaway is, add this in slowly

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  Elizabeth Swinburn Ellie Pope how slowly did you add allithiamine. I have a new bottle I'm about to start - the Pure Formulas brand.
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  Bonnie Cauley Thank you. Just posted a question on this. It is mostly answered here. 🐣
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  Susan Marie Zeinab Ahmed I thought this info may help you.
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  Zey Ahmad Susan Petrie thanks . I will use the search function and see what comes up

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  Denise Chapman Ok. Many questions. 😇
  1- Best form/dose/mgs for benfothiamine.
  2-Why separate from b6 and how many hours and which one first?

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  Nancy Hicks For those who are sulfur intolerant and wondering about allithiamine / since it is made from garlic .. Sharing that I had SEVERE sulfur intolerance ./ did not eat any veg form of sulfur... and my body did okay with allithiamine
  
  Terri Van Kempen

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  Marcia K. Coggins As a new member to this group (just this week) I am trying to learn as much as I can, as quickly as I can. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Files and going through prior threads. It seems many in this group are deriving benefits from thiamine, biotin, B6, etc., and it makes me want to jump right in with some of the supplements. When one is first starting this diet, are there timing considerations, other than those outlined in the 101 document (i.e. reducing oxalate intake slowly) relative to adding supplements?

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  Susan OwensAuthor I'm not sure we know the answer to that because it is individual. We do recommend making changes slowly because correcting a major deficiency can induce a dump and dumps can end up quite serious even landing some people in the emergency room. This is why we work very hard at encouraging slow change, so that the body has time to adapt. Of course, when you show up here, we have no idea what you were doing before you came to us. We just urge very slow change, but in the direction of lowering the body's oxalate burden.

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  Emilie Gustavsen Marcia K. Coggins my advice is to keep doing what you’re doing for a bit - learning and adjusting and getting the hang of the diet. Once you have a handle on the whole thing, you can try adding supplements. Low and slow is important here too. It’s best to only add in one thing at a a time, giving it a week or so before upping the amount or adding in another. I try to find supplements that are single ingredient and as clean as possible (no fillers). It’s a slow process but worth it. Too much at one time makes it hard to know what’s helping or hurting.

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  Marcia K. Coggins Emilie Gustavsen Thank you!!

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  Susan OwensAuthor Emilie Gustavsen that is great advice!

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  Sandy Au Annie Tsui
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  Annie Flanders This started off as a PubMed article on allithiamine - but no abstract was available there and one was referred to the original article in its medical journal - https://science.sciencemag.org/content/118/3071/548.long
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  science.sciencemag.org

  The Effects of Allithiamine on Some Thiamine-Requiring Organisms

  The Effects of Allithiamine on Some Thiamine-Requiring Organisms

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  Annie Flanders here is the original PubMed reference - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/13113171/
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  ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

  The effects of allithiamine on some thiamine-requiring organisms. -…

  The effects of allithiamine on some thiamine-requiring organisms. - PubMed - NCBI

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  Annie Flanders This article is an over view of Thiamine and its derivatives - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1375232/
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  ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

  A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of…

  A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of Thiamin(e) and Its Derivatives

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  Annie Flanders Mandy LaGreca

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  Angela Stanton Thanks for this. This is exactly what I needed to be clear about. Is there any difference between Alllithiamine and Lipothiamne?

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  Angela Otwell Jennifer Tober Sellers

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  Angela Otwell Angela Otwell
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  Susan OwensAuthor One reason this information is so critical now is that scientists are finding now that low brain thiamine levels have been found in the brain when peripheral levels were fine. We need to stop thinking that measuring something in blood or urine is telling you what is happening in the brain. It just isn’t so. I think this is also a critical thing to understand about glutamate and glutamine. Peripheral measurements may fundamentally give the wrong impression.

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  Susan OwensAuthor Thiamine diphosphate reduction strongly correlates with brain glucose hypometabolism in Alzheimer's disease, whereas amyloid deposition does not.
  PDF
  PMC Free Full Text
  FREE Publisher Full Text
  Related Articles
  Grapherence [↓1 ↑41]
  Abstract
  BACKGROUND
  The underlying mechanism of brain glucose hypometabolism, an invariant neurodegenerative feature that tightly correlates with cognitive impairment and disease progression of Alzheimer's disease (AD), remains elusive.
  METHODS
  Positron emission tomography with 2-[18F]fluoro-2-deoxy-D-glucose (FDG-PET) was used to evaluate brain glucose metabolism, presented as the rate of 2-[18F]fluoro-2-deoxy-D-glucose standardized uptake value ratio (FDG SUVR) in patients with AD or control subjects and in mice with or without thiamine deficiency induced by a thiamine-deprived diet. Brain amyloid-β (Aβ) deposition in patients with clinically diagnosed AD was quantified by performing assays using 11C-Pittsburgh compound B PET. The levels of thiamine metabolites in blood samples of patients with AD and control subjects, as well as in blood and brain samples of mice, were detected by high-performance liquid chromatography with fluorescence detection.
  RESULTS
  FDG SUVRs in frontal, temporal, and parietal cortices of patients with AD were closely correlated with the levels of blood thiamine diphosphate (TDP) and cognitive abilities, but not with brain Aβ deposition. Mice on a thiamine-deprived diet manifested a significant decline of FDG SUVRs in multiple brain regions as compared with those in control mice, with magnitudes highly correlating with both brain and blood TDP levels. There were no significant differences in the changes of FDG SUVRs in observed brain regions between amyloid precursor protein/presenilin-1 and wild-type mice following thiamine deficiency.
  CONCLUSIONS
  We demonstrate, for the first time to our knowledge, in vivo that TDP reduction strongly correlates with brain glucose hypometabolism, whereas amyloid deposition does not. Our study provides new insight into the pathogenesis and therapeutic strategy for AD.
  Authors+Show Affiliations
  Sang S Pan X Chen Z Zeng F Pan S Liu H Jin L Fei G Wang C Ren S Jiao F Bao W Zhou W Guan Y Zhang Y Shi H Wang Y Yu X Wang Y Zhong C
  Source
  Alzheimers Res Ther 2018 03 01; 10(1):26.
  Pub Type(s)
  Journal Article; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
  Language
  eng
  PubMed ID
  29490669

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  David Wood Looking around for supplemental sources of I've turned up only these two - does anyone else have other sources?
  
  https://www.iherb.com/.../Ecological-Formulas.../61109…See More

iherb.com
Ecological Formulas, Allithiamine (Vitamin B1), 50 mg, 250 Capsules
Ecological Formulas, Allithiamine (Vitamin B1), 50 mg, 250 Capsules
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  Tracy Smith David Wood I take the Lipothiamine, which is the TTFD form and alpha lipoic acid.

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  Tracy Smith
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  Tracy Smith
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  David Wood Tracy Smith Ah the ALA... so much controversy. Some say it's just an antioxidant. Others (okay, the ACC folks) say it will chelate you and you need to take it on the half life for at least three days.

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  Tracy Smith David Wood Yes. The ACC group had me afraid of that for awhile. I understand. There is a TTFD form without the alpha lipoic acid in it. I cannot remember the brand.

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  Jo Crescent Tracy Smith I've started taking this. Can you speak to dosage? I'm up to 150mg & not feeling much difference. Maybe I need more?
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  Tracy Smith Jo Crescent I did not take more than the 50 mg tablet so I am not sure.
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  Robyn Brown Tracy Smith What website did you order this from?
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  Tracy Smith Robyn Brown It is Emerson Ecologics, but their app and emails say Wellevate.

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  Josefin Moberg How about sulbuthiamine? What is known?
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  Jane Elizabeth Just re- read the whole thread..

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  Michael Roth Susan Thank you for taking the time to do all of this research!
  
  So when the dermatologist diagnosed me with vitiligo he suggested I take high doses of Vitamin D3.
  
  How much Thiamine would you recommend? Attached is a Vitamin B I have a lot of access too with lots of vitamins. Could I take a lot of this to get the recommended amount to gain the benefits you're suggesting?

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  Susan OwensAuthor Michael Roth please check out the association of vitiligo and the thiamin transporter gene called slc44a4.

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  Annie Flanders -----> Susan Owens on Allithiamine

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Great thread and info. I have just ordered allithiamine after reading through. Will make sure have magnesium with it as that is what Dr Lonsdale says is crucial. Part of what I have suffered from for about twenty years, was suddenly not being able to walk properly, nausea and huge headaches and having to take to my bed for several days feeling like I was dying, and not being able to tolerate anyone even speaking to me. I knew I would have to wait until I threw up before I started to get better. I lived in fear of these frequent episodes. All that has disappeared after going low oxalate...(apart from mild dumping every so often)..but I still get times when my brain feels so heavy and it actually hurts to think or put two thoughts together, when I have to for my job. Am hoping allithiamine might be the answer for me.

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  Taube Becker Sally Maxwell be very cautious about loading up with large amounts of mag. It made me worse. Many of us weak adrenals and mag can make you feel worse. Must be balanced with potassium
  
  Read this.

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  Josephina Allison Jones Sally Scott Maxwell; how did the allithiamine work for you?
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  Sally Scott Maxwell Josephina Allison Jones It is something I will continue taking all my life. I regard it as miraculous as my Low oxalate eating which has given me my health back. My memory is far far better than it probably ever was, I am even in my moods, even if something really problematic comes up, because I am able to see past the issue and not be overwhelmed by what I can see needs doing. I now think clearly, practically all the time. The state of my brain had been a real issue for me, for about 45 of my 67 years. I am a writer, and would have to stop work when I became confused or too exhausted from having to think deeply about anything. That exhaustion has gone. I have gradually upped my allithiamine dosage over time. I am trying to convince my sister, who has terrible memory issues, and who I'm worried might go down the Alzheimer's route, that it would be a good idea to try it. I'm having no luck there, instead I have to watch her scramble for words and forget things regularly.

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  Josephina Allison Jones Sally Scott Maxwell I make my own kefir and drink it daily. Currently trying to find camembert cheese. I ordered some allithiamine on amazon. Thank you!

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  Monique Attinger - nutritionist Glad you read this one, Sally Maxwell!

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  Val McGrath Thanks!
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  Marissa Burghdorf Susan Owens Hello, where would you recommend we get these from? Thank you so much! 

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  Michele Smorgon Looking for recommendations [ best Brands & best Form ? Capsule / Liquid / Powder ] as well as dose for both Benfotiamine & Allithiamine/ TTFD, many thanks in advance •♡•
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  Annie Flanders Those are already mentioned in this discussion Michele Smorgon - please look through all the layers. Moderator - LOD since 2015 :)

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  Nancy Hicks I have only seen the one brand of allithiamine but I have not gone looking recently
  
  https://ca.iherb.com/.../Ecological-Formulas.../61109
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  ca.iherb.com

  Ecological Formulas, Allithiamine (Vitamin B1), 50 mg, 250 Capsules

  Ecological Formulas, Allithiamine (Vitamin B1), 50 mg, 250 Capsules

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  Sharon Simas Annie Flanders I went through every entry in this thread and did not see any but the Ecological Formulas version below.
  
  It's only 50mg. If I've been on 500-750mg of Benfotiamine and want to switch, does tgis mean id have to take 10 to 15 of the 50mg Ecological Formulas pills to get the needed dose? That's 30-40 days worth for $65 - is there a more economical option for one of the lipid soluble thiamines? Or is the dosing not equal between them?

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  Annie Flanders Daniel Beck
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  Julie Naylor Susan Owens I've been taking a B-Complex for 2 years. But recently started taking B-1 separately. I think that adding more B1 is helping my stomach pain. I've heard that the B-Complex will 'push-out' B1. Is that true or do I just need more of it since I'm dealing with oxalates?

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  Annie Flanders -----> Thiamine
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  Alliene Lockett I saw some questions about lipothiamine and I wanted to add some caution. Lipothiamine has ALA in it, which is a great antioxidant -- unless you are mercury toxic. If you have mercury in your teeth, you might want to avoid any ALA or glutathione supplementation. ALA has the ability to chelate mercury, which can be dangerous unless you follow the Andy Cutler protocol.

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  Annie Flanders Susan Owens
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  Alliene Lockett I also wanted to provide a bit of caution about vitamin B6. The common commercial form, pyridoxine, can cause permanent nerve damage called peripheral neuropathy. This can range from numbness to tingling in the hands/feet, to burning like fire that you can never put out. Many people took a B complex for years and then suddenly the neuropathy happens and it is permanent. It was the pyridoxine in the B complex that is neurotoxic. The mechanism proposed is that pyridoxine is actually an inactive form of B6, and our liver converts it to the active P5P form. Yet some of the inactive form circulates and knocks the P5P form off of the neurons, displacing P5P. So it has been proposed that taking the P5P form of B6, which is commercially available, is a safer and even more effective form to take. However, I don't know if it's more effective for this particular purpose of processing/eliminating oxalates.

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  Annie Flanders https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29737502#
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  ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

  Vitamin B6 in Health Supplements and Neuropathy: Case Series Assessment…

  Vitamin B6 in Health Supplements and Neuropathy: Case Series Assessment of Spontaneously Reported Cases. - PubMed - NCBI

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Just wanted to report what allithiamine has done for me ( a post of mine from further up this thread, said that even though I had significant health improvements from going low oxalate, I still had problems with my brain: it frequently felt heavy and physically hurt when I had to think). I have been taking 50 mgs of Ecological Formula's Allithiamine for about 3 months now since that post. (I had to wait for it to arrive from the States to Aus, which took about three weeks.) My brain now has no pain, no heaviness, and I am thinking clearly.... and can"t quite believe it! I recently added in 5000 mcg Biotin, and then after a while, 300 mg Choline a day. I am a writer, and having a functioning brain again, is simply a pleasure! No more tangled thoughts; no more fearing to start a work. I am also convinced that Choline gave me a further boost. I won't be stopping any of these, any time soon.

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  Nancy Hicks SO happy for you Sally Maxwell
  
  you could look into Citicoline which is more readily absorbed than choline.

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Nancy Hicks Ooh. Thanks for that. Will do!
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  Ranka Radovic dr. Lonsdale recommends taking magnesium l- threonate with ttfd for brain things. and choline is great!

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Ranka Radovic Many thanks. I do take a magnesium before I go to bed. Will check if is is the one you mention.

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  Yann Macek Very interesting about this allithiamine. What kind of diet are you on? Would it make sense if I am mostly carnivore and my biggest source of carbs is beef liver? I read people on low carb / zero carb don't need much thiamine.
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  Susan OwensAuthor I am so glad it worked! You can probably a higher dose than that if you want to find out if it would be value added. Thiamin does fit into the oxalate story, though there is far less research on it. It may be more related to intracellular oxalate that would not be finding calcium to make a crystal deep inside cells. There is a huge difference between intracellular and extracellular calcium.

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  Sally Scott Maxwell I will try a higher dose then. Was worried to try it, yet felt it might be of benefit. Many thanks.
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  Nancy Hicks Sally Maxwell I went up in dose to see how my body responded.. It liked 100mg ... for some time.. I even went way up . At 300mg I got diarrhea >>
  
  Dr Lonsdale has referenced allithiamine in particular to chelating/ binding with heavy metals.. Lead and I think mercury .
  
  I personally wonder this is why it helped my body so much .as I have tested for very high lead and extremely high mercury .
  
  I had had 35 years of constipatoin / the last year and half a totally seized colon .. I got worse on regular thiamine and benfothiamine . One month on allithiamine .. 100mg-150 mg daily and no more constipatoin . Now the consitpatoin comes back when my body is detoxing on my homeopathic remedies..

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Nancy Hicks Interesting. Thanks for that.
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  Sally Scott Maxwell Also, that theory about an oxalate crystal deep inside cells is intriguing, and to my unscientific brain sounds plausible. I had problems with my brain starting when I was at Uni back in the early 70's, when I left home and started eating a hippie diet..brown rice virtually every meal, heavy wholemeal breads, nut spreads etc..I would fall asleep in the library and get nothing done, and wake up feeling weird. I lost a heap of weight at that time, only because I often felt really ill. Fogginess became a part of my life then, when it hadn't been before when I had lived at my family home, - where my mother boiled the vegetables to smithereens and discarded the water, and there had not been a whole grain in sight. Trying to be healthy as the true hippy I became back then, led straight to a high oxalate diet and decades of ill health.

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  Linda Joe Hazen In a youtube interview about their book, Dr Marrs states she has patients on up to 2,000mg. Too bad it's so expensive and I wish they'd make it with better quality fillers.

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  Linda Joe Hazen I was in touch with a supplement manufacturer who has tried to resource TTFD to manufacturer a cleaner product or provide just the straight powder, but so far they haven't had any luck :-(

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  Linda Joe Hazen Sally Maxwell I am happy you are doing so well. I have a non-stop crushing headache and brain fog. I've been using benfotiamine with some help, but I may purchase the TTFD. I'm just worried I'll react to the fillers.

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  Sally Scott Maxwell Linda Joe Hazen Yes the expense is an issue for sure, especially if taking the higher dosages. And yeah fillers! I hope you get to the bottom of what you can do for your headache. I presume you don't go near spices etc. They were so bad for headaches for me. The bigger migraines type headache - where I was in bed for three days - were from high oxalate in general at the tipping point.

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  Jeannie Quesinberry Traylor I have had 40 yrs of chronic migraine and bentofiamine triggered some of the worst, but my brain reacts to everything including spices. Enjoy hearing about your experience.
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  Susan OwensAuthor Linda Joe Hazen cardiovascular research does sell pure TTFD but it is a bottle of 250 grams and I don’t know if they offer smaller than that.
  
  You need to call them directly if that is what you need.
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  Linda Joe Hazen Susan Owens Thank you, I will call them.
  P.S. - I sure enjoyed your presentation. :-)
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  Dan Farley This is very interesting to me. I was on a mineral balancing protocol for heavy metals, and I noticed that when I take certain B vitamins, and especially benfotiamin, I get very strange smelling urine. To the point where it's offensive to others, and it won't wash out of my clothes. I also get very powerful detox/dumping symptoms, and they can completely wipe me out for days.

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  Sharon Simas Dan Farley Might you be short of molybdenum, which is used with B1 in the transsulfuration pathway ?

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  Dan Farley That's a good question, maybe I'll try adding that in. I was working with a specialist a while back, and she had me taking molybdenum.

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  Taube Becker Dan Farley could be the metals detoxing. And then there is the sulfur issue as Dan said
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  Patricia de la Garza Dan Farley i have that as well!
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  Jere Pylkkönen Hi everyone, i have question about thiamine and allithiamine, few months ago i tried benfothiamine for 2 months and didn't notice any difference, now i'v been taking allithiamine for a week just to see does it help me with my dumping and i feel more brain fogged than before and tired with minor heath palpitations.
  I'v been on carnivore diet for 5 months now so nothing else has changed except im taking allithiamine, is this some sorth paradox symptom or should i stop taking the allithiamine?

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  Maria Josefin I started Allithiamine after about 5 months carnivore. I had to start with just a pinch and work my way up very slowly or I would get head ache etc.

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  Ellie Pope I had a kot of paradox when i increased thiamine -severe brain fog and exhaustion. In my case it certainly was paradox reaction - it cleared up adter 4-6 weeks

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  Nancy Hicks Yes only a pinch ... and work up. It I could be an adjustment phase .. Allihtiamine has been studied in terms of chelation abilities of lead, and I think mercury >
  
  I really believe the lead chelating ability plus the oxalates connection is how allihtiamine helped my body ...
  
  . I had such a good initial reaction that when the second day came and I felt worse on it I figured it must be detoxing something ... so I cut back to a quarter capsule .. I was fortunate it only took a week before I was able to take a full capsule and two or three per day very quickly .. .

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  Kelly Zolper Has anyone used B1 from Herb-Science? I'm trying to find B1 that doesn't have a bunch of fillers and is easy to split up since doses are so high. I know the thread is comparing Allithiamine versus benfotiamine. Does that mean this type of B1 is not recommended? https://www.amazon.com/.../B07DP.../ref=ox_sc_act_title_4...
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  amazon.com

  Liquid Vitamin B1 Drops Liquid Thiamine Drops, Alcohol-Free Liquid Extract,…

  Liquid Vitamin B1 Drops Liquid Thiamine Drops, Alcohol-Free Liquid Extract, Support Digestion, Maintain Proper Mental Function & Convert Foods into Energy - Herb-Science

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  Annie Flanders -----> Thiamine
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  Annie Flanders -----> Allithiamine
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  Betsy Parker Is Benfotiamine (Life Extensions brand, 100 mg. capsules) beneficial to take for healing leaky gut? Elliot Overton has YouTube videos suggesting Thiamine supplementation for individuals with unresolved leaky gut symptoms after following a low oxalate carnivore diet.

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  Pauli Anna Eisen https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3669831/

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Case Report: High-dose thiamine improves the symptoms of fibromyalgia
Case Report: High-dose thiamine improves the symptoms of fibromyalgia
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  Levi van Tricht Pauli Anna Eisen I can't find what form of thiamine was being used, do you know?

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  Pauli Anna Eisen don't know
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  Levi van Tricht That's unfortunate! I'm having trouble deciding between lipo/allithiamine and sulbutiamine.

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  Pauli Anna Eisen my fibromyalgia does better w Allithiamine
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  Annie Flanders -----> Allithiamine [Susan Owens]

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  Annie Flanders -----> Benfotiamine [Susan Owens]
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  Sally Scott Maxwell A further update on what allithiamine has done for me. ALL issues with my head have gone...finito...whoopee! My head and brain used to feel heavy and dull...and swollen... every day, and it used to physically hurt to think. I am a writer and would be exhausted and unable to push myself further, after even twenty minutes of work. I would almost have to lie down. I started out taking just 50 mg a day, but have increased my dosage about 4 days ago, to now take 300mgs a day. Result: I am being hit with irrational happiness out of nowhere! I lived for years with underlying low level sadness, depression, anxiety about tiny issues, plus I was frequently ill from the oxalates I was eating in my attempt to heal myself...so, often I wasn't 'happy'. I am in shock at the difference now. I have though, made another change recently as well: I have been eating about 40-50gms of camembert cheese a day. (I now read where camembert cheese is high in biotin.) I had been searching for dairy that I could tolerate, and had experimented with small amounts of everything and suffered diarrhoea with even cottage cheese and quark, until I struck gold! Adding Camembert into my diet has been revolutionary. I do not have any reaction to it, and now I do not wake feeling like the inside of my gut is inflamed. And I am no longer hungry all the time. (I understand that it is likely to be the 'crust' which is giving me all that benefit.) Anyway, I have not felt this alive, or content, even HAPPY, in decades. Didnt think it was possible anymore, (even though I have always been a positive person in my healthier moments.) So it's allithiamine (plus biotin as well) and camembert cheese every day for me from now on.

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  Taube Becker Sally Scott Maxwell that’s phenomenal ❤️does the camembert provide a sulfur form of thiamine ?
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  Sally Scott Maxwell Taube Becker Interesting. I will try to find out. What I have found is this study that pointed to camembert reducing inflammation in the brain. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6555451/
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  ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

  Tryptophan-related dipeptides in fermented dairy products…

  Tryptophan-related dipeptides in fermented dairy products suppress microglial activation and prevent cognitive decline

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  Gord Dale Where do you get your Camembert? Is it the true Camembert which is available only from France or just any grocery camembert? Thanks
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  Sally Scott Maxwell I am in Australia. The camembert I buy is just a locally made one, which I buy at a Deli. A Delicatessen in Aus is a produce place normally known for slightly higher quality than a lot of supermarket products.. The brand I buy is not one of big mass p…See More

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  Taylor Brooke Sally Scott Maxwell what type of allithiamine are you using?
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  Sally Scott Maxwell Taylor Brooke Ecological Formulas🙂

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  Eliona Baci Sally Scott Maxwell it's Camembert cheese the Brie cheese ?
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  Sally Scott Maxwell Camembert was developed from Brie. Brie has more fat and is not as strong in taste as Camembert (even though I don't think camembert has a strong taste at all). From what I have read, both have the same mold used for the crust. It's the crust that 's the benefit I believe - so I sometimes buy brie instead. Brie is runnier, softer. I prefer Camembert.
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  Julia Alexandrova What is in the mold of the cheese?
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  Annie Flanders -----> Allithiamine
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  Crystal Corner I have been trying to use the search function and read all I can but I am even more confused than ever now :( Susan Owens has mentioned a few times I might need to take the supplement, but how do I know, and how do I know which one to take? I am having an order shipped to me from the states and I want to include all I need...
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  Susan OwensAuthor There are so many potential genetic and environmental issues that change our need for various supplements. That is why I like using the OAT to get a snapshot of the biochemistry.

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  Rose N Jackson What is the OAT?
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  Susan OwensAuthor The abbreviation stands for Organic Acid Test.
  
  I analyze the results on the organic acid test that comes from Great Plains Laboratory. They include three oxalate markers.
  
  Even though I use the data from their test, I have a very different take on what that lab calls microbial markers that they use to recommend antimicrobial treatment.
  
  Why do I differ so on their interpretations on microbial issues?
  
  I looked for years and found no support in the medical literature for using the specific markers they use to draw conclusions regarding a need for antimicrobial treatment. I monitored the results from those who followed their suggested protocols, and the markers ended up worse, not better and more often than not, the oxalate values (that are on the test) ended up much worse.
  
  Rose N Jackson, I use the test for a different purpose, which is how it was used for decades before Great Plains opened their lab. Patterns revealed by changes in organic acids on those tests can clarify a lot of metabolic issues where there is a great deal of science in the medical literature to support the interpretation. Watching relative shifts in the analytes can reveal how someone's body was handling stresses on the body in ways that often correct after addressing nutritional issues.

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  Josephina Allison Jones Susan Owens I am in the process of getting the test. How do I get the results in your hands? Thanks.
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  Annie Flanders Josephina Allison Jones - one has to PM Susan Owens.

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  Sherry Sparkle Bright Please forgive the question if it is repeat, I tried to find the answer in all the above comments...great timely info...I was about to order powered sulbutiamine....I see many here speaking of allithiamin...is the difference simply one is synthetic and allithiamine is natural...if you can source a clean 3rd party tested sulbutiamine formula is that a good path or really should it be allithiamine? Thank you!
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  Taube Becker Sherry Sparkle Bright there is another post on that product.
  
  The search field in this group may bring up more info.
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  Taube Becker Sherry Sparkle Bright
  
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/TryingLowOxalates/permalink/2220730411341822/

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  Taube Becker The search feature is very valuable. There are lots of posts on sulbutiamine in this group. I tagged you on two of them. And posted a link above to one of the posts which is closed for comments
  
  You’re a new member. I don’t know if you’ve used search before but it’s very valuable

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  Sherry Sparkle Bright Taube Becker thank you so much!!
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  Sherry Sparkle Bright Taube Becker that link was great thank you!

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  Linda Louise I've just ordered allithiamine and I'm guna take it separately to my b6 with some nutritional yeast because I'd rather get nutrients from food if I possible... I'm not good with methyl B12 or folate yet so my pathway must be jacked up... Lots to try and learn though 😊

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  Susan OwensAuthor Linda Louise I think one watchword is to know yourself. We are all different on many levels and what works to get you out of a hole may not be the same thing you need when you got out of the hole. Just for anything, change slowly so you can make mid-course corrections.
  
  Also, most adverse reactions come from uncovering a deficiency in an area that was hidden by another deficiency that you just corrected!

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  Linda Sliwowski This post has a link to unit 3 but I’d like to read the others. Can you please post links to those. I thought maybe they would be in the announcements section but there aren’t any. I’m just wondering if something is wrong with my phone.
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  Taube Becker Linda Sliwowski go to the top of the group. And select UNITS. See screenshot
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  Taube Becker
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  Linda Sliwowski Taube Becker I’m using an iPhone and those options aren’t working.
  I guess I’ll need to check out unit 3 using the link but can’t access any others. I’ll lurk and not ask questions 🙂
  I admin a large group and moderate 2 others and I’m not understanding why the options aren’t showing. I’ve never had that happen before on any groups.
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  Linda Sliwowski Taube Becker it also doesn’t let me post here, only comment.
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  Linda Sliwowski Taube Becker I’m going to leave the group and then request to join again. Maybe that will work.
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  Taube Becker Linda Sliwowski what do you mean you can’t post ? All posts go to a pending queue where they are reviewed and approved.
  
  Some posts only Susan can answer. And some contain info that has already been covered in the Units and older posts.

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  Judy McCarty why don't you try copy and paste allithiamine versus benfotiamine? in the box that says Search this group. this may get you started in the right direction. Being new is very overwhelming.
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  Linda Sliwowski Judy McCarty there seemed to be a glitch with facebook the day that I was added and I had to leave the group and try again. It finally worked. The first time the area where you would normally choose
  “Units” was not visible among other things.
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  Annie Flanders -----> Margareta Eliasson -- o!
  I am new in this group - Thank you for taking me in!
  I wonder is there any difference to take allithiamine versus benfotiamine?
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  Annie Flanders The answer to this question is in this thread Margareta Eliasson. Please also read - in Files - Primer on How to Use the Search Feature - which teaches how to do searches in the Archives [search this group]. Moderator - Low Oxalate Diet since 2015 :)

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