Healing Recipes: Oxalate and Gallstones - research and member report

When I changed to a Paleo diet I made use of a lot of almond flour and ate almonds for a snack. I wound up with a gall bladder packed with stones. I had the gall bladder out but continued to have IBS symptoms and now pain on my left side. Taking enzymes solved the problem, so I used enzymes with every meal for several years. My doctor diagnosed me as having pancreatic insufficiecy but did not seem too concerned. Then I started having bouts of pancreatitis . The first one felt like a heart attack! One theory was that I was still producing gall stones and that they were blocking the common duct. Recently I did a 48 hour fast and stopped eating almonds (and stopped eating nuts in general except for peanuts). I also started eating fewer vegetables, focusing more on meat. Viola! I no longer needed enzymes. The change was dramatic. I also no longer have pancreatitis. Have oxalates been implicated in gall stones?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Quantitative analysis of gallstones in Libyan patients. - PubMed - NCBI

Maggie Geoffroy Susan Owens i wish mine were evaluated before my gallbladder removal. But they weren’t. I also was not told anything to do to support the liver since it now does two jobs.

Susan Owens Sigh. Sometimes I wonder if the gall bladder is replacing the tonsils as an organ that doctors are eager to remove.

It may be hard to believe this, but I was born in the fifties and still have my tonsils. That may be a very good thing since I have no spleen.

We the organless, LOL!
Susan Owens My own background is different because I studied sulfate as part of our signaling systems when I was in grad school, and sulfate and oxalate travel on the same transporters and exchange for each other. People with oxalate problems may also have trouble with sulfation and that is important for signaling in organs like the gall bladder and pancreas, and removing your gall bladder does not fix that problems.

The authors of this article may not have known about the sulfation side of things.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31604888
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kinetics of gallbladder emptying during cholecystokinin-cholescintigraphy as…
Kinetics of gallbladder emptying during cholecystokinin-cholescintigraphy as an indicator of in vivo hormonal sensitivity. - PubMed - NCBI
Susan Owens Here they talk about sulfation in that signal. Again, being high in oxalate may compromise that signal and that may have had a lot to do with the issues that caused some with autism to respond to IV secretin back about twenty years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24734780
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Measurement of nonsulfated cholecystokinins. - PubMed - NCBI
Measurement of nonsulfated cholecystokinins. - PubMed - NCBI
Susan Owens This may tie into your issues straightening out in your pancreas/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5076393
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The action of scretin, cholecystokinin-pancreozymin and caerulein on…
The action of scretin, cholecystokinin-pancreozymin and caerulein on pancreatic secretion in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI
Susan Owens Sulfation is just so important for the regulation of other intestinal hormones like gastrin and motilin. This involves a lot of the research I did in grad school.

This is talking about ruminants. but it talks about the importance of sulfate in this regulation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001226
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sulfated gastrin stimulates ghrelin and growth hormone release but inhibits…
Sulfated gastrin stimulates ghrelin and growth hormone release but inhibits insulin secretion in cattle. - PubMed - NCBI
Susan Owens People who do not understand the important role of these gastrointestinal hormones will also tend not to know about how important sulfation is and that eating high oxalate may compromise that regulation, but I challenge you to look up inflammatory bowel diseases and you will see how often elevations of oxalate are a feature.

When people try to blame all these GI problems on our "gut bugs" and suggesting killing them, they are totally missing the influence high oxalate dietary choices have had on the function of the gut including the hormones that regulate motility. Of course, that is a huge issue in microbes moving into the small intestine.

Xisca Nicolas Susan Owens several of us with liver congestion / gall bladder issues start to be puzzled about eating sulfur rich veggies or not!
These are low oxalate, so...
Much used in LOD but what should we do if we suspect bile issues? What for the ones of us who are keto for example?

Susan Owens What has been your experience with supplements or specific foods
Xisca Nicolas Nothing special and clear that I can report....
We have been discussing our confusion a little lower in the post...
Linnette R Mullin Susan Owens I have MTHFR-compound heterozygous. I can’t methylate and I can’t convert sulfates. How might this affect oxalate issues?
Susan Owens Linnette the effects of MTHFR snps may affect methylation in slowing down its efficiency, but if you couldn’t methylate, then you wouldn’t be alive.
Xisca Nicolas I find very interesting that low oxalate veggies are often high in sulfur! Cruciferous and onions for example!
Should we eat them raw or juice them?
I indeed have a taste for them! Who else feels this instinct?
Should we take MSM or NAC? (Ok for this one I will search in the supps list... ;) )

Wendy Carter Smith I found a gallbladder diet that eliminated onions & garlic, among many other things. That diet really helped. Maybe the person knew this!

Emilie Gustavsen Xisca Nicolas eating your food is better than juicing. Both msm and NAC can be helpful and personally I found msm to be very good for me in the beginning. I had to start very low and work up slowly, early in the day or it interrupted my sleep later.
Xisca Nicolas Emilie Gustavsen I have issues with fiber...
Thanks for the advice. Was starting slow all about sleep?
Do you know specifically what went better for you with MSM?
Xisca Nicolas Wendy so hard to reconcile several issues and diets! I do have some liver congestion and wonder why onions and garlic would hurt? Have you read the reason? Do they also eliminate cruciferous?
If not, then sulfur is not to be eliminated...
Itka San Emilie Gustavsen I made the mistake of taking msm an hour before bed once. Could NOT sleep a wink!
Wendy Carter Smith I read the comment incorrectly—I thought that they eliminated onions, not that they were higher. Sorry. The diet I was referring to did make them optional after a certain point & did eliminate cruciferous.
Xisca Nicolas Wendy so it means they eliminated sulfur food... which are ok for LOD but not if we have bile issues!
(Who is also pulling at their hair full hands? 😄 )
Wendy Carter Smith Xisca Nicolas—it is SO much!! I am just now wading through the intro information & trying to put my histamine issues on top of it—oh my goodness. So many “this works if this is, but not if that is”. 😩
Amala Judith Sookne So if we have ox issues and gallbladder issues, can we eat onions, garlic and cruciferous veggies? I'm confused. Are there any foods we can eat in that situation? I was just about to make onion soup.
Xisca Nicolas We have to wait for Susan to answer. .. I tagged her In her last post and explained our confusion to take 2 things in account.
Monique Attinger - nutritionist Not sure why folks are confused exactly... oxalate and sulphate can be moved on the same transporter, therefore if you provide more sulphate to the body, then that transporter will be less likely to pick up oxalate. You essentially muscle oxalate out of the way. That shouldn't make sulphur foods an issue, but a benefit. But some may find that they have difficulty with digesting - in that case, you have to tweak your diet as required.
Wendy Carter Smith Thank you so much, Susan!!! I have been fighting gallbladder attacks for 3 years now, and also arthritis. My many vegan friends have insisted if I eat vegan it will help, but the exact opposite occurred—when I went vegan, eating organic veggies (mostly spinach & Swiss chard!) straight from my garden, nuts, fruits & grains, I ended up with arthritis and gallbladder pain. That’s when I started researching & found oxalates. Histamines, too. I’ll look carefully at all you’ve provided here, thanks!!
Kari Hall I’m sorry I’m a little confused by all of this. Does eating higher sulfur veggies help us or is this saying that will cause more issues?

Nelle Pettit Smith Kari Hall - I’m also confused. Eating broccoli and cauliflower lately both set me off. Bad pain in the middle of the night.

Kari Hall I just had a huge flare and I had been eating quite a bit of cauliflower since it’s low ox so I was thinking it might be connected to the flare. I’m now wondering if it was connected in a bad way or if maybe it was a good way and just caused a dump to help me rid some stored oxalate. I would really love some clarification to know if I am causing myself more harm by eating the higher sulfate vegetables or helping myself with them.
Xisca Nicolas I asked the same and I am also afraid to use sulfur and sulfur veggies!
Paula Gee Don't quote me but I don't think you want to exclude sulfur veg, that is not the point. However if you are struggling to tolerate them you need to start with small amount and build up slowly. Epsom salts is sulfur, so start with one tsp in your bath or foot bath and work up slowly. My girls and I used to not tolerate anything sulfur well but after starting very slowly that changed.
Another way is to slow cook your onions for half an hour, they turn out delicious! Eat a small amount and see how your body goes. Not so easy to slow cook broccoli or cauli so start with onion.
Amala Judith Sookne Paula Gee, what does slow cooking do to onions?

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Xisca Nicolas I think sulfur goes away if we cook sulfur rich veggies....
Paula Gee Amala Judith Sookne I don't know exactly but when we did the GAPS diet, to introduce onions it was suggested to cook them slowly on a low temp. We got far less bloating when we did this then over a period of quite a few months I shortened the cook time which led us to cooking onions in mince like usual.
Susan Owens Xisca Nicolas sulfur s an element. Cooking does not eliminate it at all.
Dyane Lacerda so glad this post is here. i just recently discovered that I have gallbladder sludge and inflammation. i’ve never had this kind of pain but it started about one week into strict carnivore (specifically after eating a large, juicy ribeye). I was Paleo for one year previous to this but again, never had problems until now.

i’m in a predicament as I don’t really know how to manage this. been following the bean protocol and generally increasing fiber so as to get this toxic bile out of my system. i was thinking of continuing on this path until my stool turns a normal color again and then doing an extended fast.

Merrell York Stagliano Dyane Lacerda I’ve had liver sludge but no visible on ultrasound calcified stones. During a painful gallbladder attack (my first and worst) I searched for a way to help and discovered drinking a quart of unfiltered apple juice is recommended to loosen sludge in an acute attack. I’m not sure if that’s ok for Oxalates though. But it did cut my pain in 10 minutes. It seems like as the sludge loosens up and moves through the liver certain areas are more uncomfortable than others.There are gallbladder/liver flushes out there but I have found taking magnesium before bed and eating a food high in good fat helps to get my hepatic stones out.

Dyane Lacerda thank you, Merrell. I hate the idea of consuming all that sugar, but I'll do it to ease the pain.
Janet McNally onions, garlic, and broccoli, and cabbage do cause intestinal cramping for me. I was also eating a lot of these at the time I had my gall bladder out.
Jenniffer Anderle Janet McNally... I went through the same journey.. no stones but along with enzymes I take betaine and tudca
Sarah Sarah My abdominal pain & swelling is gone. My oncologist told me that what we are taught in school with the 5 food groups (pyrmamid) is not true. I had to remove a lot of vegetables plus all fruit. Since going low oxalates my pain is completely gone. Now I only feel it when I feel I’m getting myself stressed.
Itka San Nuts and specially almonds ALWAYS set off a gallbladder attack in me! It took me years to pinpoint it.
Amala Judith Sookne This group is amazing! I've been thinking of asking if there is a connection between gallbladder disease and oxalates. Here are the answers,and many more connections explained. I'm beginning to think that oxalates are the root of most of my conditions, including histamine problems, arthritis symptoms. GB symptoms, and more. Unfortunately, the foods that are recommended for GB issues are generally very high ox, beets especially. A therapeutic GB diet made me very sick and pointed to oxalates.

I have used a set of traditional herbal bitters in the past, that cleared up all of my GB symptoms over a period of a few months. I should have continued with it, but the bitters are not cheap, and as long as I wasn't having noticeable symptoms, I didn't bother. I'll have to check out the herbs for oxalate level, but since they are tinctures, that might not be a problem. I may take them again (it's been a few years since I took them) and see if my ox symptoms increase or decrease. I have friends who have taken the bitters for several months, then done a GB flush, and had many improvements in their health. I was afraid to do a flush unless I took the bitters a long time to prepare for the flush.

These connections are fascinating.

Wendy Carter Smith I used bitters for awhile, too, & they helped. Maybe I’ll try them again!

Amala Judith Sookne Wendy Carter Smith, which bitters did you use? The ones I used are 4 different bitters, and I think the herbs are mostly traditional Chinese remedies.The one that worries me is turmeric tincture.

Do we know if alcohol tinctures contain oxalates?
Annie Flanders Amala Judith Sookne - i hope that you have access to the spreadsheet in the TLO - Spreadsheet group. Moderator - LOD since 2015.
Amala Judith Sookne Annie Flanders, yes, but I doubt that these herbs are listed. Plus they are alcohol tinctures. Are oxalates alcohol soluble so that a tincture would draw ox out of an herb?
Huckelberry Te Amala Judith Sookne perhaps boiling the tincture in water will get rid of the alcohol.
Amala Judith Sookne Huckelberry Te, I'm not worried about the alcohol, just about oxalates if they are in the tincture. Evaporating the alcohol probably wouldn't get rid of oxalates (I'm guessing).
Huckelberry Te Amala Judith Sookne you are right
Xisca Nicolas Annie Flanders we have read that essential oils are safe, but not if alcoholic extracts are safe and as oxalate free as oils!
This question really needs an answer, even if it is "we still don't know"!
Xisca Nicolas By the way... curcuma exists in essential oil. ... I have some!
Amala Judith Sookne I'd really like to know if herbal alcohol tinctures contain much ox from the herbs. Is oxalate dissolved well in alcohol?
Susie Marion Perrone i do not have a gallbladder. the only thing that helped me through the years was dgl which helps move gall through the system and betain. Then when i started keto woe i had to start taking ox bile. now Carnivore woe for 2 months and i don't need ox bile for some reason.

Laura Langlois Zurro Susie Marion Perrone what is DGL?

Meighen-Brenda Russell Laura Langlois Zurro "What is DGL?
DGL or Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice Root is a natural antacid, where the glycirrhizinic acid component of the root has been removed. DGL may stimulate our bodies defense mechanisms resulting in improved quality of mucous, lengthening of intestinal cell life and enhanced microcirculation in the gastrointestinal lining. Deglycyrrhizinated licorice is a demulcent, an agent that coats and protects mucosal surfaces. In the stomach and intestines DGL licorice protects the lining from ulceration. It also stimulates mucus production thereby covering the irritated tissue so that it has a chance to heal." (from description for NOW DGL)
Albert Johnson I've had my GB removed and have been taking ox bile for over a year. How do I tell if I still need it? If I stop what should watch for?
Annie Flanders Thank you Meighen-Brenda Russell for spelling it out - very much appreciated. Moderator - LOD since 2015 :)
Susan Owens Moniquerea Attinger - nutritionist, think we need to add this to our TLO Research Units..
Annie Flanders Monique Attinger - nutritionist
Heather Nikkel Curious how this ties into choline deficiency and pemt gene snp? I know that those with pemt are more likely to have choline deficiency, but many are deficient in choline in general, and gallbladder problems tend to follow that. One of the reasons women have gallbladder removed after pregnancy is because baby uses a lot of choline in utero. I've heard dr Ben lynch speak on choline, in case anyone wondering where im getting my info.
Merryland Kay I have been trying to Save my gallbladder for 20 years. I did numerous gallbladder flushes & passed thousands of stones in the beginning & for several years. All the sudden the flushes did not work anymore. I used different supplements too baby it along. Finally about 4-6 weeks ago my Gallbladder started to calm down. I’ve been on the low ox diet for about 8-9 months. The last few years I had been using a Bile flow Supplement, lipazyne, extra Choline & phosfood. I can still feel a little twinge there occasionally but I believe it’s starting to heal & I can FINALLY eat some fat / oils again. I’m So glad I didn’t have it removed. That doesn’t always solve the problem. I believe Oxylates have been affecting my health for a Very long time, along with histamines, possible mast cell disorder & Salycites. Severe Constipation on top of it all my whole life, finally started to break loose a year ago. There IS Hope!!

Merryland Kay One more tip. I was told years ago that I was deficient in choline and should take it the rest of my life. It got pushed to the back of my mind because there was so much going on. I’m not sure how much that would’ve helped with the Oxylate situation, no way to know now

Teri Carstens Juneman Study showing gallstones can be made up of oxalate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24377514…See More
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Determination of chemical composition of gallbladder stones and their…
Determination of chemical composition of gallbladder stones and their association with induction of cholangiocarcinoma. - PubMed - NCBI
Teri Carstens Juneman Study showing gallstones can be made up of oxalate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23105703…See More
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

An extended chemical analysis of gallstone. - PubMed - NCBI
An extended chemical analysis of gallstone. - PubMed - NCBI
Teri Carstens Juneman Study showing gallstones can be made up of oxalate.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17897915…See More
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prevalence and Characteristics of Gallstone Disease in an Iranian…
Prevalence and Characteristics of Gallstone Disease in an Iranian Population: A Study on Cadavers - PubMed
Teri Carstens Juneman Study showing gallstones can be made up of oxalate.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6807574 (full study - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/16390587)…See More